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Grant Funding Search

Grant Funding Search review: Fraud 334

K
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8:04 am EST
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This company is a legal scam. I ordered a free cd and only had to pay $1.98 for shipping. Somewhere hidden in the terms apparently they state they will charge you $69.95 if you don't cancel in a certain time frame. When you try to call them you get a voice mail by from someone who barely speaks english. I don't expect a call back and I will probably be out the 70.00 bucks. I have learned a lesson though. I will never order off of sites like that again. File the claim with your bank and cancel your credit/debit card and order a new one. I wouldn't be surprised if outfits like this sell your info.

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334 comments
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flyakite
Seekonk, US
Apr 07, 2009 12:58 pm EDT

Same Boat here. We should all start a lawsuit. Im sure that an attorney would love to get all of our money back :) There are probably several others out there that have not posted here that would also be on board. Blockbuster lost alot of money because people banned together to get there money back. What this company is doing is not right especially under the circumstances. All of us looking for grant money are obviously looking for a little additional financial help and none of us were expecting it cost this much or else we would not have done it. Lawsuit Lawsuit Lawsuit.

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Robert W. Meier
Anchorage, US
Apr 07, 2009 4:16 pm EDT

Like many people here, I ordered the cd from Grant Funding Search. I received the cd, but 2 weeks later I also had the unauthorized $69.95 charge. There was also an unauthorized charge from IWB Club for $29.95. I didn't think I was getting something for free. $1.98 for a cd is reasonable. It costs them a fraction of that to produce it and mail it. I should have known it sounded too good to be true.

I got the same routine from their operator when I telephoned. They said I had to cancel before 7 days to avoid the "membership fees." The cd took almost 3 weeks to get to me. I read the conditions when I bought the cd. The was nothing about the charges, the membership, or cancelling before a certain time frame. IWB was more cordial. They aserted that since I called to cancel within the "30 day time frame", I was entitled to a refund. We'll see if they follow through.

I found a website about this scam, and it has some suggestions for us to get our money back:
/URL removed/

I'm going to try it. Good luck people. I'm usually more careful than this, but I guess we live and learn, don't we?

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GoodGuy_67501
Hutchinson, US
Apr 07, 2009 5:19 pm EDT

I purshed a 1.98 CD from GRANT FUNDING SEARCH on March 18. Then not to long later on they took 69.95 out of my account with out my permisson. So I called the company to reqest a refund and they said their was nothing they could do. So i called my bank and told them so i hope i can get my money back. DO NOT ORDER ANYTHAING FROM THESE CROOKES.

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pissed off
High Springs, US
Apr 08, 2009 3:06 pm EDT

there a ###ing rip off punk ###

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pissed off
High Springs, US
Apr 08, 2009 3:09 pm EDT

These punk ### robbed me for $2.00. they could have that ### dumb as refs some one needs to call imigation for those immigrants there probably terroist

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pissed off
High Springs, US
Apr 08, 2009 3:12 pm EDT

deep throat it and die slow!

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pissed off
High Springs, US
Apr 08, 2009 3:20 pm EDT

this people are all hookers in nevada

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Dion
US
Apr 08, 2009 4:49 pm EDT

I too was scammed by this so-called Grant Funding search company.I can't believe that our government would continue to allow this to happen over and over and over again to hard working american citizen.They have to know what going on, because there's to many people complaining about this one company.I work to hard for my $69.95 to give it away to con artist, scammer, and false advitiser.Maybe if it was $69million, it would get someone attention that could do something about it!

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Robert W. Meier
Anchorage, US
Apr 09, 2009 9:09 am EDT

I think I got lucky on this scam. I followed the steps on /URL removed/ . I recently started checking my bank statement as soon as I get it, and I went to my bank and reported these unauthorized charges right away; within 30 days. I've also been banking at the same small credit union since the '80's, they are very personable, and so they know me. When I ordered the cd online, I printed the page from GFS's website that stated what the offer was. I always do this when I order something online. There was nothing about additional charges. I think this may have helped. The representative at my bank was very helpful, and sympathetic. She had heard of GFS before, and had worked on maybe 3 other claims in the past. She knew most details of how GFS operates; the fine print, the delayed cd mailing, the 'trial period', etc. I gave her copies of what I had, and she had me fill out a dispute form. She said it may take as long as 2 months to resolve, but typically the bank confronts GFS in writing, then they have a time frame to respond. If they fight the dispute, the bank may need me to counter GFS's response in writing, but she told me it rarely comes to that point, and these people have almost always refunded rather than fight the bank action. Regardless of this, there is fraud protection on my debit card so (to my surprise) the $69.95 was immediately refunded to my account. To OUR surprise, IWB Club had already credited my account for the $29.95, less than 24 hours after I called them! My bank offered to cancel my card, and issue one with a new number, but I declined because they said it probably was not necessary. I'm going to continue to monitor my account just in case. Even though this issue may be resolved for me, I believe some follow up complaints (FBI, BBB, etc) on my part are in order. It may help others in the same situation.

I hope something here helps to get refunds for some other people. If nothing else, start now, and plan ahead. Personally, I thought I was being cautious, but I'm going to try to be more careful in the future. I don't think any of us saw this rip-off coming at us, and that is what these scam artists are counting on.

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Leah
St. Louis, US
Apr 09, 2009 4:46 pm EDT

Even if you would have gotten in, it would not have been helpful nor to your benefit. The grants that they have listed are for corporations, agencies, and some not for profit. So, If you can file through your HUD office or some corporation; you may find something of interest that may help you. If you are just a lowly individual that is seeking help and comfort in some way---FORGET IT!

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Marsha
US
Apr 09, 2009 9:49 pm EDT

Ordered cd for $2.10 and 7 days later they withdrew $74.32 from my checking accounts unauthorized. I'm calling my bank in the morning and also the Henderson Police Dept. and Grant Funding in the morning. My daughter works for an attorney, so I will also we taking with him as well as the Attornery General's office.

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bponinski
DePere, US
Apr 09, 2009 9:52 pm EDT

I went on this website to get the free informational cd regarding grants & funding. I understood that I would have to pay 1.95 shipping, but before I even received the cd I was already charged the 69.95 membership fee that I did not even agree to. I called the toll free number on my bank statement and could get no one higher to speak to regarding this then a operator. I don't understand how I could be charged a membership for something that I could not even preview.

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Krystal
US
Apr 10, 2009 11:10 am EDT

I am too! and I am so upset how could anyone scam so many people like this. They say you're getting a free CD for a shipping charge of 1.95, but then they charge your account for the amount of 69.95! This rediclous. I furious.

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Janine
Arlington, US
Apr 11, 2009 8:37 pm EDT

I ordered a Free Government Grant CD, on 3/30/09, via https://grantsearch.securemediabox.com/ website for $1.98. I have my receipt proofing that my CD was free and I was only charged $1.98 for shipping, plus the website states the same thing. When I obtained my receipt it let me know that they also signed me up automatically for other (bonus) programs, which I immediately called to try and cancel. I obtained the run around and had to wait 24 hours for them to be able to find me in their system. They were able to find me the next day and finally after a lot of pushing back, they canceled my account that I never agreed to sign up for in the first place.

On April 2, 2009 I called, Grant Funding Search Customer Service at [protected], to ensure that I would not be charged any charges related to their website http://grantfundingsearch.com. They told me on the phone that I cancelled within the timeframe (7 days) and they said they would send me an email that my account was indeed cancelled. I did obtain the email which basically stated that my online account was cancelled as of 4/3/09.

On 4/10, I noticed that I was charged $69.95 via my Debit Card and it was deducted out of my checking account….4/10/2009 MC-DRI*8882102544GRANTFND [protected] -$69.95

I tried emailing their Customer Support @ support@grantfundingsearch.com but they don’t bother to respond back. I have tried calling them @ [protected] with no success. If I am lucky enough to get someone to answer the phone, they immediately place me on hold and never get back with me; or the line will all of a sudden be disconnected. The people answering the phones are hard to understand, since English is their second language.

This is the biggest SCAM out on the Internet. I am very unhappy to have been lied to and to have my money taken out of my account without my permission. And how do I know that they won’t continue to taking money out of my account. I will be filing Fraudulent Charges/Activity form via my Bank, so this will be reported to our State Banking Commission of the fraudulent activities happening. It will be investigated and hopefully this website will be shut down soon, so this doesn’t happen to others.

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dmoore89
US
Apr 11, 2009 9:17 pm EDT

Hello Guys.
They did this to me, and they gave my money back, and I called and got me another card. It's really a shame when you cannot trust a company in the USA Online anymore, so just simply call and ask for a new credit card, and they should send you another if you explain your sitution. I was lucky.
Good Luck to You,
Alabama

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Paul Woodworth
Ursa, US
Apr 14, 2009 1:10 am EDT

I to have been scamed by Grant Funding Search . I paid by credit Card $ 1.00 on Jan. 16-09 for shipping for a CD ( which I never received. On Jan 24-09 I was charge $29.95 and I called the 866 # NO ancer. On Feb.24-09 I was Charge $ 29.95 so I change my credit card. I would like to get my $ 60.00 back too. Paul call me [protected]

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kito4149
Forrest City, US
Apr 14, 2009 10:32 am EDT

everybody with a compalint with the grant website- i got my money refunded to my card by calling [protected]. my 59.95 was refunded to my card within a week. so please call this number cause it worked for me and they NEVER have to worry about me trying this b#ll[censored] again! kito4149@yahoo.com

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dubs66
Portland, US
Apr 14, 2009 3:43 pm EDT

I fell for this scam too. I was looking for and hoping to make some xtra money during these hard times. I went ahead because the web site said that it was only going to be $1.98 for this grant package. I thought I was going to get a book or two, boy was I wrong. I havent gotten anything and I ordered it in January, I'm still looking for it. I started looking over my bank statements and found that they had taken not only the $1.98 but they had also taken out $69.95 TWICE from my account. I called today and had it cancelled I got a cancelation number, the name of who I spoke to and she told me that she had reversed both of the charges and that it would take 3-5 days to get the money refunded back into my bank account (Ill be watching and checking with my bank) in these days and very hard times (for me) nobody can afford to lose that much money. I will be filing a report with the BBB and anyone else that needs to be contacted. The number I called is [protected] and had no troubles cancelling it and I didnt even get the chance to ask her for a refund, the lady automatically told me that the charges will be reversed. We will watch and see.

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L. Lavender
Newark, US
Apr 16, 2009 2:52 am EDT

Today 4/15/09 I received a call regarding this company offer for their instruction program and also was given a customer service # [protected]. When I went on the net to locate the information they had assured me would answer my questions, I found 7 pages of complaints. Today I am going to my bank to stop payment. I am surprised that this con is still being pepertrated. Why hasn't anything been done to put these people out of business? ALL Newark, NJ.

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jesi1981
Nashville, US
Apr 18, 2009 7:31 pm EDT

This is the phone # for The Grant Funding Search: [protected]
BBB Rating: F - http://www.vegasbbb.org/bbb_rated_acc_rpt.asp?bbbid=78650&tr=rated&lg=F&ex=11%2C15%2C18%2C19%2C22%2C26

I had the same experience. I ordered the CD for a flat shipping fee of $1.98 and five business days later, $69.95 was deducted from my checking account. I discovered this transaction the following day and called them immediately to seek a refund. I was informed that this charge was enforced after a seven day trial period upon order of the CD. I explained that I saw nothing regarding a recurring monthly charge, but even as so, I had yet to receive the CD and requested that the service be immediately canceled and the money refunded to my account. I was told that this was impossible as it was within their right to exact the charge stated on their website service agreement. I requested to speak to a supervisor, and was told that one would return my call.
I did receive a return call from a supervisor who reiterated the policy on refunds. I informed them that I was aware of their rating with the BBB, and based on the level customer service I was receiving, it wasn't a stretch to understand how they achieved it. I didn't threaten, cajole, or insult, but calmly explained that I had no interest in furthering my involvement in their service and respectfully requested that they refund my money, which the supervisor finally agreed to do, supplying a refund cancellation number and informing that the money would be refunded in 3-5 business days..
Well, here we are, 8 business days later. I called them back and was told that their must be some sort of "technical difficulty" in the billing department and to call again in 3 -5 business days if I didn't see the refund go through.
I don't like the direction that this is going. The saddest part is the fact that if someone is wiling to pay for a CD that will supposedly give them access to information that will assist them in funding their education, it can be assumed that they are not coming from a very lucrative position. To then begin charging a recurring fee of $69.95 is unconscionable. Fine print exists to shelter the crooked.

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Julie K Manos
Oklahoma City, US
Apr 20, 2009 6:36 pm EDT

my name is julie manos Grant funding search called me at home and told me about help seeking gov.grants I Told her I was disabled and didn't qualify she tole me go ahead and try, it's free just pay shipping and handling fee. I still haven't recieved anything in the mail from them. what can I do I cant afford an attorney. My e-mail address is jayjay-1953@live.com. And thanks to any one who will listen.

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patricia
Irvine, US
Apr 23, 2009 3:44 am EDT

I called them twice today but she was firmly denying my refund. I will call tomorrow asking for a supervisor. This is very incredible that nobody has stopped them. Like the other people we are trying to survive in y=this chalenging times and the less with desrve is some crooks stealing our money. any suggestion how can I get my 69.95 back?
Patricia

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Sabrina Sullivan
Henderson, US
Apr 23, 2009 11:32 am EDT

I was scammed too. And was told no refund, & yada yada yada. Same as everyone else. After reading all of the complaints on the internet on several different sites. I searched the Better Business Bureau, and sure enough Grant Funding Search gets an F rating. I expected that..However, I found the info and name of a "so-called" manager. So I called them back..again.. and asked for Mr.Ed Moore.I also let the woman know that there are Tort Cases existing on such selling methods, on misrepresentation of being Goverment facilitated, and what the internet postings sayfrom the people they have frauded, as well as the BBB. The lady asked me to hold, another lady by the name of Sandra Valdez came on the line. She said my refund has been approved, gave me a confirmation # for that, said it would be refunded in 3-5 bus.days. I wrote down the #, and assured her that if it wasn't refunded within 5 days I would be contacting her again, and then a tort case attorney. Amazing..when mentioning this information to her, I was was all of a sudden approved for a refund even tho 2 1/2 months has passed since I first ordered the cd. I think they know they are done for. I'd say to those of you who dont' know what to do..Call back, Ask for Sandra Valdez. Be Firm! Don't take no for an answer. Tell them not to tell you about terms and condition..Tell them to shut up and pay up or you will be on the "Tort Suit List" People vs Grant Funding Search . Make them listen. Hope this is helpful to someone. Good luck folks.
Sabrina Sullivan

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angrymom
Laurel, US
Apr 24, 2009 1:51 am EDT

I seen this ad on the internet stating you can get informational cd on grant funding for 1.99 and recieved it in the mail along with the company charging my credit card for 70.oo. When called and told them it was false advertisement they were very very rude and nasty and said sorry there is nothing they can do about it. I am very disturbed that they can get away with some scam like this to evey person.

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Ken
Gladstone, US
Apr 25, 2009 3:13 am EDT

I am trying to start a small business and I came across "Grant funding search" site. They said for a small fee ($1.98) I would get a cd containing information on how to apply for government grants. I would have to cancel my membership in 7 days not to get charged $70.00. I cancelled with in the deadline and thought the matter was closed. Then a charge of $47 showed up on my account from a company I had never heard of, let alone had any dealings with. When I called them they said that when I signed up with "Grant funding search" I automatically signed up for there program. I was mad as heck! I asked them to cancel it and refund my money. They said they would. After reading all of these other complaint testimonials though, I think I will just cancell my card and take the loss. I didn't see a single person say that they got the money back. I did see several say they were charged again. I would complain to the proper authorities, but it looks like this company has been getting away with this for over a year. The authorities aren't interested in stopping it. To all of you who say I should have read the "fine print": There was no option at any time to read any terms and conditions before or after the point of giving my card #.

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Lisa H
Mayberry, US
May 01, 2009 1:37 am EDT

Ok, these guys are still around, using different names now, all including the word "Grant" and the other company uses the word "Ideal" in their various titles.

At the bottom of it, we found out that Ideal Wealth Builders is a "marketing subsidiary company of the parent company that owns Grant Funding Search." Uh huh.

I don't know exactly how it happened to you guys, but to answer Moderator1876's snotty comments, I WAS NOT buying anything - I asked for a free CD with information, supposedly from the government, about how to apply for grants to fund my daughter's college. The CD was free but a shipping and handling charge of $1.98 was asked for. This I approved. I KNEW the CD might be worthless, but I figured it was worth wagering $2 for. My mistake.

Only AFTER I gave my credit card number to them did I get informed that I was "also" being "given" a "7-day free membership" to their website. I was not told that the CD (useless enough already, terribly done, grammar, spelling, like a chimp using Power Point) was no good without going on their website to get further information. And I was told that I would also be "given" a "free 30-day membership" to Ideal Wealth Builders Club. I immediately made it clear that I did NOT want ANY membership to ANYTHING. I was patted on the head while they filed my credit card number for safe-keeping.

Grant Funding Search was smart enough not to charge my credit card more than the $2 I authorized them to do. It was only when Ideal Wealth Builders hit my credit card that I knew there was a problem. At that point I contacted GFS AGAIN. They said they could not cancel a membership for IWB because they were not the same company and I was given a phone number to call IWB which was not in service.

When I did get a number for IWB that worked, well, I typed it all above. Eventually they did refund the charge from February. But that refund form they wanted me to fill out to get the January refund was a joke, especially since I had called in January to get rid of them in the first place. My bank told me they could not advise me to sign the joke form or not, but that they definitely WOULD pursue the charges and I did not HAVE to fill it out. So I didn't. I did email that refund form to my bank, who thought it was rather absurd, which I agree it is. I received and filled out a dispute form for my bank and sent them a copy of my transcripts of the calls to IWB and all the emails to and from concerning GFS and IWB. I got my other $29.95 refund from my bank promptly. I got back in touch with my contact at the bank last week and she said they are pursuing it and I have done everything they need me to do.

So, Moderator1876, since neither GFS or IWB ever showed me any Terms of Service, and since I dared them repeatedly to produce anything written or recorded that showed I had agreed to anything beyond the $2 and they cannot do so, explain to me exactly what I bought that I am now ### about and exactly why I should shut up and let these companies walk over me? Happily, I now have my money back, but that is not due to GFS or IWB's fabulous customer service skills. Having provided names and times and even some emails addresses to my bank, Consumer Affairs, and the FTC, I hope they nail those suckers to the wall. And if you are not an employee of GFS or IWB, Moderator1876, then may I say that your complaint against the complainers on this board, the vast majority of whom were not trying to sit on our ### and do nothing, it SUCKS. If you are choosing to defend any actions by GFS or IWB, you are certainly someone I don't want to listen to. And no, I don't believe you really got $12k through using GFS or IWB. That's an internet commercial in which you are the star. Let me guess, you got it through a stimulus check from Obama?

As for the rest of us who were sincerely trying to find ways to help ourselves through grants, Consumer Affairs advises that if ANYONE is asking for ANY money to help you get grants, find out where to apply for them, asks for an application fee, or asks for any money whatsoever, RUN AWAY. Report them to ConsumerAffairs.com. CA has a huge report on these scammers. Also, pissedconsumer.com you will find complaints and replies regarding The Grant Instructor. This is the same people using their brand new name but playing the same old game.

Instead, try:
grants.gov

For educational grants:
fastweb.com

The upshot of my case is that my bank stood behind me. Since IWB did give me 1 of the refunds, it was probably not necessary to change my credit card number, but I did so anyway. Neither GFS nor IWB has yet to show me any TOS or prove any of their alleged emails and phone calls in which lies the "proof" that I asked for any of their services.

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Dorothy Br
Philadelphia, US
May 09, 2009 10:43 am EDT

I order a grant cd for $1.95 and they went into my account and took $30.00 out of it. Tehy had no right to do this. If they do not put my money back into my account I am going to put an news paper article in my city papers and let everybobdy now how loe down they really are. And what site it comes from so people will beware of this site that started this.

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Jose Brambila
Milwaukie, US
May 10, 2009 1:46 pm EDT

Yes This rip of gave their addres were they are located they also stoled $69.95 out of my checking i purchased a cd $1.98 and never got it then they took money out of my account. their address they gave was 850 horizon ridge parkway Hemerson nevada 89052. Her name was sherlian Cruz?We need to get our money back? the government has to help us solve this problem these people are stealing and the government has not solve the problem.

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SGM1313
San Clemente, US
May 11, 2009 5:53 pm EDT

WE NEED A CLASS ACTION NOW..WHO IS WITH ME! MY BANK DID NOT BACK MY CLAIM AS I HAD NO PROOF OF CANCELLATION. DO EVERYTHING VIA CERTIFIED MAIL OR YOU BANK WILL NOT PAY YOU BACK.

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Lisa H
Mayberry, US
May 11, 2009 6:43 pm EDT

The FTC is publically ASKING for complaints regarding this scam. They will listen to you.

As far as proof, have you looked at your phone bill? My cell phone showed my call to them in January and each phone call after that. It shows both incoming and outgoing calls, including calls that left voicemails. When IWB claimed that I had never called in January and swore they had contacted ME by the phone number I never gave them, I told them bluntly I would be happy to get a copy of my cell phone bill and PROVE that they had not called me ever and that I had called them exactly when I said I did AND the bill shows how many minutes I spent on the phone with them, averaging about 1/2 an hour per call. They were dumbfounded that I knew I could prove that the phone calls did or did not take place, and obviously if I called them and talked to them for 1/2 an hour multiple times within a week, the FTC does not need a full transcript of the conversation to know that it wasn't a simply matter.

The FTC will be happy to get your complaint. They are going after these people with a vengeance and have publically told Yahoo and Google and Facebook, among others, to take action to keep these [censored] adds off their sites and ads. Check the report on these scams at ConsumerAffairs.com for full details.

Certainly a class action lawsuit would be a great idea, but the FTC will pursue and IS pursuing this without requiring us to pay a retainer.

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soco:)
Coconut Grove, US
May 11, 2009 7:11 pm EDT

Same thing happened to me. You need to act in 2 levels: contact the company again and insist until they cancel your subscription -if you insist long enough they will even refund the money, or some of it and then, go to your bank and denounce the fraud with them, fill out the forms they'll send you and in a month or so you will get your money back. Also, for security reasons, it would be a good idea to cancel the card that was used for the withdrawals and get a new card to avoid any new charges.
It is a bothersome process but at least you will get your money back. Good luck!

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Angie
Galveston, US
May 13, 2009 9:57 pm EDT

There are six charges on my account for various amounts. My husband purchased a seimple CD for .99 cents and they keep charging us. We had our bank dispute the charges and hopefully we will get our money back from the bank. These people are cam artists and none of them hardly speak any english. It made us bounce in our bank 4 times and we have three mouths to feed. I hope someone does something about them if there is a lawsuit i would like to be part of it this is sad that in this day and age people can't make money themselves they have to take it from others.

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Mad as hell
Fort Worth, US
May 14, 2009 3:01 pm EDT

This is a total scam...I never received anything in the mail..No even the that CD they claim will help in processing. I don't how this company can get away with scam...I there is a "Class Action" I want to be a part of it...TRaso

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courtney
US
May 14, 2009 3:26 pm EDT

i was searching the web of free grants and this came up they called me about 8 times and i asked what web site it was that gave them my number and when i asked they told me grant search funding and when i went there it was fraud i had them on the phone and they asked for my checking account number.but after seeing all this i was like no think you i dont need it thanks.and the guy got all mad and hung up on me. thanks alot for posting it as fraud.

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Praful Patel
Lebanon, US
May 14, 2009 4:04 pm EDT

I paid $1.98 through my credit card to Grantfundingsearch.com for info regarding grants. After more than 30 days I have yet to receive any information from them but it seems they have sold my credit card info to a company called CARREWARDS & REAWARDSCENTR located in Moorpark, California and these two have charged me $ 12.50 each. After complaining, they have cancelled my so-called "membership' but have refused to refund the amounts. I have written a letter to Moorpark Police Sattion, 610, Spring Rd., Moorpark, CA-93201. [protected]). Hope the police will not file my letter.

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SGM1313
San Clemente, US
May 14, 2009 4:06 pm EDT

class action class action...we need a lawyer people

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Laura Dovlatyan
Skokie, US
May 15, 2009 11:15 am EDT

I had exactly the same problems!

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SGM1313
San Clemente, US
May 15, 2009 4:15 pm EDT

CLASS ACTION! respond and we can set up an email list..

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Lisa H
Mayberry, US
May 15, 2009 7:11 pm EDT

Class action would be great, but please ALSO go to the FTC and report them. The class action suit, if it makes it to court, could take years with little result and the best result might be an out of court settlement. The FTC will SHUT THEM DOWN.

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SGM1313
San Clemente, US
May 15, 2009 7:33 pm EDT

I reported the to the ftc and bbb and the Bank Comish about my bank not backing my fraud claim.
THE GOV DOES NOTHING PEOPLE< they do not give a F*&K about us.
Either it's GO Postal with a 12 guage on these ###s or sue them, who is with me?

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