hit-and-run driving
Last Friday, at 12:30 on a clear, sunny day, in Magnolia, TX the Schwan's driver barreled down my friends narrow dirt country road to deliver an order to a neighbor. He was speeding (approximately 40-50 miles an hour) and talking on his cell phone. My friend's dog was sleeping at the end of their driveway. The driver swerved and hit the dog. The dog screamed so loudly a neighbor three doors down heard it and turned to see the driver speed past and almost hit another neighbor turning onto the street. The dog is in critical condition and may not survive but all Schwan's will say is "sorry." They are refusing any responsiblity and have made no attempt to rectify the situation. My friend is out of work and doesn't have the money for the surgery the dog needs, all they can do is try to keep him comfortable. It seems the least Schwan's could do is pay for the vet bill. There are no sidewalks in this neighborhood and they frequently walk on the streets to visit and help each other. What if this had been a child or one of their elderly neighbors?
The complaint has been investigated and resolved to the customer’s satisfaction.
illegal pay practices/slave labor
I was hired in April 09 as a Customer Service Manager Trainee at $32, 000 per year salary. The Customer Service Managers make a Salary of $38, 000 per Year. Everyone is told that they are Salary employees and need to work 12-14 hours per day 5 or 6 days a week to meet their sales goal. Whatever it takes, do it as you are a Salaried manager.
Well in June I suffered heat exaustion while working and took off two days per doctors instructions. Schwans DID NOT pay me for those two days. I called their payroll department and told them that I was a Salary employee and as such should be paid my weekly rate per the U.S. government guidelines for a salary position. The payroll clerk Theresa told me well we pay you guy's by the day, if you don't work five days in the week you only get paid for what you work. I have taken this up with the Depot Management only to get the runaround for the past 3 weeks.
Also I asked the payroll clerk if the pay for the 6th day if you do work 6 days and I was told No, only five days a week.
This company is using the "cover" of Salary to demand their employees work 60-70 hours per week for a small weekly paycheck for their benefit but "Dock" employees if they don't work due to illness. Pretty lowlife type of business Schwans seems to have here.
I have filed a complaint with the U.S. Labor board and will be meeting with a representative in Phoenix this week. They agree that it looks like Schwans is not using the salary position as the U.S. Labor board has set forth. I am not doing this for myself as I am leaving this horid company but for the friends I have left behind that have no choice but to put up with this poor treatment by Schwans of their employees, the true ones that make the company money!
The complaint has been investigated and resolved to the customer’s satisfaction.
Schwans managers tell you up front that this is what we expect from you. When you accept the job you know what the job is about so stop your complaining. You ###s never should of came to a company where you actually have to work like your grandparents used to work. I work 12-14 hrs a day 5 days a week and make 70, 000 a year and love it. I get paid for the work I do. My wife loves spending the money I bring in too.
My husband works for Schwan's and a lowlife named Doug who manages the Dublin depot. My husband retired from law enforcement and wanted a change and thought Schwan's would be a great company to work for. He works 70 hours a week and his last paycheck for two weeks was around $700 dollars. This company is the absolute worst company in the way they treat employees. They boast how they are a "family oriented" company but they lie. All they worry about is themselves making money while the employee suffer by never seeing their families and getting underpaid. This local depot is always hiring and I see why now. Don't fall for their pay pitches either. It's all a lie! My husband is willing to work all the hours if the pay is what they say it will be...but it isn't anywhere near what they claim! Not only do I not recommend anyone working for Schwan's, I also recommend you not support the company by buying any of their slave labor products.
I can understand all of theses views. I currently work with "said company" you say long hours...You say hard work...Well I don't know many jobs where those are not some sort or requirement. I worked for rentacenter for 4 years. Carrying couches, refridgerators freezers plasma tvs, amoung many other items, the pay at first was great, But then as you progress with the company the "physical strain" lowers and the mental strain greatens. If you honestly take a job and are not ready for long hours and hard work, do work at the crack a jack box they were talking about earlier. I have worked for some of the "biggest" companies in the world, Rentacenter, Walmart, and trust me long hours yes... hard work yes... Its a matter of the indiv. hired weather the long days and hard work is worth the check they recieve. Schwanns is far from "hard work" a masons job is hard work, the hardest part about schwans is climbing in and out of the truck, serioulsy, your carrying pizza ice cream and corn... not "hard work" long hours yes, not long work. As for me I am a husband and a father of 2. my days off weather 1 or 3 in a week goes to them no matter how tired or "exhausted" I am. The man doing this job has to make that sacrifice to make sure his family comes first, I havn't missed much of my kids life and do not plan on it...They are my world, and with out them and my wife I wouldn't be in exsistance...
For some reason I've been thinking about this and feel that I should write. My father worked for Schwans for about twenty years while I was in high school and in college. My dad was led to believe that hard work would pay off. Unfortunately, living from paycheck to paycheck for years, he finally retired in his sixties. Becasue Schwan's couldn't let him go legally, he hit the pavement for years working 18 hours days, working night shifts as a janitor, and other various laborious jobs. I've grown to resent this place as my father has since incurred heart surgery and much more from his overly physical, long hours, away from home weeks at time to try to make a simple paycheck to support his family. I have no respect for Schwans and would love a mass lawsuit against them for their unorthodox practices. I missed having my dad around for years. I just wish my dad would have left schwans sooner instead of thinking that the values he grew up with like hard work and loyalty would pay off.
I am a wife of someone who works at Schwans and I feel like a single mom. I never see my husband and he has missed all of our child's "firsts." I don't understand how someone who works for this company for 20 years can look back on their life and feel like they have "lived life to the fullest" or honestly lived life at all.
I too was a thirteen year employee. Ten years on routes, a regular chairman's club achiever, or at worst President's club, and three years in middle management. I guess I just have to learn to live with being lazy. Silly me. I thought that I could change some of these things. These people are among the worst. Liars, cheats, and thieves. So you suffered heat exhaustion on the job. Many others have suffered worse, and have been raked over the coals by the company for filing workers' comp claims. Many will continue to suffer for the rest of their lives, and the company will continue to fight every inch of the way to keep from paying those claims.
The pay issues are old news. For years we were paid for attending scheduled meetings that lasted for days, until we were flatly told that would no longer be the practice, and with no explanation, despite the fact that we were required to attend, for the most part having to travel out of town for the duration of those meetings. Vacations, which were hard enough to come by, were once paid at a rate that was the average of what you had been running on routes. That was later reduced to a much lower amount. This is only the most current in the long list of abuses, and there is no end to their creative means to find other ways to cheat you.
As for the company people out there who pledge glassy eyed fealty to the company, they are sad examples of humanity with no worthwhile life, or soulless individuals with an abiding disregard for moral principles, and with profit as their guiding light. They will not stop. Avoid them at all cost.
These people are not about to change. A few people at the top are making a killing, if they have to by killing its rank and file employees.
Ahh. The Amerikan dream.
hey grape push ups how is your relationship with your wife and kids?
I worked at that hole for 1 month before i read through the lines.My friend told me how great the checks were but what he didnt tell me was insane hours and company men as bosses. as for the "not working"comment your a [censor]. what good is a check when you have no time to spend it. the depot managers are at home with their wife and kids by 3pm while laughing at you for being out all night to make your little 55 dollars for the day.
The top producer in the depot here, wife cheats on him, kid barely knows him, he works until 12 am. Its called work not slave labor. Schwans is by far the worst company in the country..
FYI.. I moved back into my career field(thank god they took me back). which is a monday-friday 6-2:30 outside job and make more in one week than your top producer does at schwans in the tucson depot and dont have to stay out until the crows come home to do it and dont have to pressure sale senior citizens into buying over priced frozen pizzas.
Lets to the math grape
you make schwans 1500
your cut is 165 bucks for the whole day
you come in at 7 am-get off at 9 pm
14 hours to make 165 bucks schwans number crunchers would call that 11 an hour.. US dept of Labor would call it BS..
If a jack in the box employee makes 8.50 an hour and works 8 hours makes 68 bucks, if they are really dedicated and work 6 hours overtime at the time and a half rule makes 76.50 for a grand total of 144.50 in a day.
so you have to sell 15oo dollars a day to make more money than a jack in the crack employee does in the same time frame..
You that say you can work 32 hours is a fool. You are required to work at least 12 hours a day no matter what. I had a sales goal of $850 the other day and I did $1250 and came in at 6:30 because I am on "light duty" from a work related injury and I was told I was suppose to stay out the 12 hours. The employee doesn't matter its the money that the LSM and company that matters.
You knew what was required when you got hired. Stop being a big baby and move onto a job where you can work 40 hrs a week . I have been a route manager for 13 years and what I have seen over the years is most of you out there just do not want to work.
Good for you for filing a complaint. I was a route driver for Schwan's in Washington for over a year. I recently quit due to their excessive and required hours with no additional pay. I was working 60+ hours and have filed a claim with WA L&I for 182 unpaid overtime hours. Schwan’s is violating the outside sales exemption law because according to ES.A.9.7 page 4 #8 and #9, employees must be free to regulate their own hours and must be advised that they are overtime-exempt. I was a great employee who loved and was loved by my customers. Their mistreatment and unethical behavior is despicable. Best of luck with your complaint!
scam and cheating
Beware Schwan's employees and future risk takers! Schwan's benefits are not what you think they are. After paying for coverage for over 5 years and being told by the company that they pay for half I have just found out that is not true. I have just purchased a 'family' policy for less than what they charged me for an 'employee' policy. And with much better benefits! If I had signed up for a 'family' plan with Schwan's then I would be paying less than half for a 'family' plan as an individual. Seems like Schwan's is making money off their beloved employees.
Also, and the biggest issue of all; Schwan's LTD (long term disability policy is really short term because it only helps you for a total of 12 months. And at that Standard Insurance Company who under writes the policy does everything they can to avoid paying you your benefits. They will lie, cheat and steal to keep from paying you one red cent. Schwan's doesn't tell their new employee this, ever. All they want you to believe is their benefits are the greatest. That's B.S!
God for bid, but if you are ever injured while working, look out. Even if the injury is the companies fault such as faulty equipment, etc. Specialty Risk Services is the Company you get to have ruin your life. And I mean this literally! They are just as crooked as the rest of them. Schwans is not interested in their employees. Schwan's has very few veterans left as compared to new employees. I know, I was a veteran employee.
Good luck to current Schwan's employees but beware. The company will screw you some how, some way and anyway they can. And for the left-over veterans who aren't qualified to work anywhere else I say good luck your turn is next.
The complaint has been investigated and resolved to the customer’s satisfaction.
I've been at schwans for about 11 years. I have been a csm the hole time. If you have been at schwans for a period of time, and you are not making any money, it is your own fault. I am now over 70 thousand a year. If you don't believe me, look for me in the corporate papers. My name is Lyle Schnowske. Put some effort into what you are doing, and then you will make the money. I think enough has been said. Effort or nothing. For all you complainers, I guess I won't be seeing you at the banquet.
So you are insulting customers? Well that explains why the service has gone down. My parents always would buy through Schwans and I even did before we moved. I tried ordering again and 3 times rescheduled without reasons. Your attitude screams why several customers are complaining. Hope you enjoy your banquet.
I have gout and am now being told, after a year of blood, sweat and tears of building my route that they are eliminating my truck and dividing it up. I am doing better than most all of the other drivers.
They do not want to fire me yet, because they don't want to lose my customers. They lost more than 100 people when they fired the last guy.
awful place to work in
Looking back on the three months I was employed with Schwan's, I realize how it was absolute insane what I did there under poor conditions that the average person would never tolerate. After reading the other postings about Schwan's, and realizing what this company is all about, I am almost ashamed of myself for enduring what I had to do week to week to earn a bare minimum wage paycheck, and call it a job. When I was hired in December of 2008, I was assured that would be no week-end hours.
Week-ends are for family time I was assured. Therein was the first major hidden clause, because what they fail to say is if your numbers are not up to par for the week, or if you are off for any reason whatsoever during the week, you need to come in on Saturday and work to make up for the poor numbers, or missed day. However, there was also a hidden clause that if the manager person of the depot decided that the overall numbers for the week were not up to par for the entire depot, then everyone need to come in on Saturday ! She pulled that on all of us one Wednesday morning, when we were all there getting ready for the day. Because of overall numbers being poor, we were told to come in on Saturday. There were a couple guys who had already made plans for the week-end, and as a result they were quite upset.
IN conclusion, Schwan's seems to have a problem keeping potentially good employees and the reason is quite clear. The $32000 starting salary sounds decent at the onset, but when you sit down and realize the hours you are required to put in Monday thru Friday, the numbers work out to be about $12.00 an hour ! I think a greeter at WalMart does better than that, and at least your not busting your ### in and out of a truck 10 or 12 hours a day.
The complaint has been investigated and resolved to the customer’s satisfaction.
Schwans Treats there Employee's like they are nothing, And works them Like Dogs
My husband was working 92 hours a week, and barely cleared 1000.00 every two weeks
When he found a new Job a Better Job, and we are talking about someone who did 10 years in Infantry
They sent him a nasty Letter talking about honest. Personally it is none of there Business if and when we get a new job, If he has an interview it was none of there Business,
If you dont agree with them, they will then Treat you like crap.
This company is Full of Immature Bosses, and The CEO should do something
because you do not send your Old employee's nasty Letters, because they found something better
This company has been around 20 years and they go threw Drivers like Panties.
Maybe the management should be looked at and the way they treat there "so-Called" employees
The Army Treated my Husband really good, just sad we retired out due to injury and went to a [censor] Place like this to work ...We got smart one day and quit to return to School on a GI bill
It is not $38, 000 to start out with. They tell you you will get that, but you have to make a certain amount of money for them in order to get that $38, 000 a year. I just asked my husband about this last night and he has worked there going on 14 years.
Schwans is a HORRIBLE place to work!
I currently work a 8 day route system for Schwans which is four days a week, Monday through Thursday, granted I do work 12-13 hours daily I make over $50, 000.00 a year, which by my calculations does not add up to $12.00 a hour. In my experience the ones who complain were not very good at it, and by the way the starting salary is $38, 00.00 a year.
deceptive hiring practices
To those of you considering a career with Schwan's, DON'T DO IT! This a copy of a letter I recently sent, and I can assure you it is all TRUE.
Alfred Schwan, Chairman of the Board
The Schwan Food Company
115 West College Dr.
Marshall, MN 56258
Dear Mr. Schwan,
I am writing in regard to your employment and employee practices in depots in Harmony, PA, and Titusville, PA. In June of this year, I began speaking with, LGM for the Harmony depot regarding employment. I was told of the potential to make 50-60, 000 first year even though the position was commission based. I told him I was interested, however, I would not be able to start until the school year began. He stated that this was no problem, that he would be hiring all summer long.
In late August we began speaking again, and started the necessary steps to come on board (drug test, physical, background check). On or about September 22nd, I was offered the position and told my start date would be October 2nd, and to report to the depot in Obetz, Ohio, to begin New Employee Orientation. I promptly put in notice with my employer that September 29th would be my last day. I arrived the evening of October 1st and checked into The Sleep Inn.
I began the NEO training the next day, and at one point the class was told that during your mentor training it was a requirement that you sign up 140 new customers in the six week period. This was the first time I had heard of such a thing. A classmate asked what would happen if that goal was not achieved. The instructor stated that you would be let go, but not to worry, everyone gets there. I was somewhat concerned, but I had no choice but to stick with it because I had left my previous employer.
After dismissal for the day, I went back to the motel to change clothes and head out for a bite to eat. I returned at approximately 8pm, and found that my key would not work. I went to the front desk to inquire, and the clerk told me I had to check out immediately, that Schwan's was not going to pay for me to stay there. When I asked why, he said he did not know. He reactivated my card so I could get my things, and having no place to go, I spent the night. At eight the next morning, the clerk is calling the room and once again stated that I needed to check out immediately. I did so, and reported to class.
I reported the previous evening's incident to the instructor, who told me to get with the receptionist for alternate accommodations. She told me she would try to secure a room for me at the Comfort Inn and it would be with a roommate. I told her this was unacceptable, that I did not wish to share a room with a total stranger.
That's the way Schwan's does things, I was told. I stated that this was still unacceptable, and she said she would see what she could do. I checked in, discovered I had a roommate, turned in my key and made accommodations of my own. I finished the NEO the next day and drove back to Pittsburgh.
I drove to the depot in Harmony the next day October 5th, was given a couple of uniforms and told to come back Monday October 9th to pick up directions and a schedule. I did so and drove to Titusville to begin mentor training. I reported to the LGM. He gave me a quick rundown and told me to drive into Townville, where I would meet the driver; he stated that this would not be my mentor, this was just for the day, and that my mentor would be X.
I began riding with X that week. One day we pulled into one of his stops, which he referred to as “### ville", stating that the place was full of ###s, and he had even wrote it in the route book that way. It was part of the Gertrude Barber Center for handicapped individuals, which my brother attended as a child. I informed X of this, and his response was “Aren't I mean?"
The next day I informed LGM of his comments and I requested to be changed to another mentor. He stated that he would take care of it and address the issue with X. I remained with X.The next week, LGM asked how things were progressing. I told him not well. I was getting no time behind the wheel of the truck, because X, in his own words, liked to be in control. Also, I was not receiving any training on the HHC. I once again requested a change of mentor to LGM. I remained with X.
Meanwhile, new customers are not being signed up, there isn't any route building being done, and I'm getting nowhere near my goal. LGM has not spent any time training me, yet my concerns fall on deaf ears. In the middle of the fifth week, X, district manager, is at the depot and tells me I am not on track, and if I don't get there that he is going to “cut me loose". He states that if I get to 110 new customers by the end of the sixth week, that they would bring me back for a seventh to get the additional 30. LGM, states that it is partially his fault because he has had no time to spend with me. I once again bring up that I am not being trained properly.
Keep knocking on doors I'm told.
In the last week, I'm still riding with X. During that week, I witnessed illegal drug use and possession in the form of marijuana by X. It was also offered to me in the form of a cigarette to take back to my hotel room. I declined.
By the end of the sixth week, Friday, November 10th, I had reached 107 new customers, 3 short of the 110. LGM had told me that morning to report back on Tuesday November 14th, because he would be off on Monday. I drove the 2 hours Tuesday morning and was promptly fired by LGM, and now had to drive the 2 hours back. The following morning, Wednesday, I drove to the Harmony depot to turn in my uniforms. I spoke to LGM and voiced my concerns over the drug activity. Where it went from there I don't know. I also called the compliance and ethics hotline.
Mr. Schwan, I know these are serious accusations and I sound like a disgruntled employee, and in a way I am. I left my job of three and a half years to come on board with you, and I cannot go back. Now the holidays are right around the corner and with 2 children to support, I haven't got a job. If certain things had been disclosed upfront, I may have had second thoughts and now would not be in this position. I hope that you take this letter seriously. Should you have any questions you may contact me directly.
CC: M. Lenny Pippin, Chief Executive Officer
Bernadette Kruk, VP of Human Resources
John Beadle, Chief Operating Officer
Jim
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
U.S.A.
The complaint has been investigated and resolved to the customer’s satisfaction.
My husband recently interviewed with them and is waiting to hear back. He lost his 10+ year job with Pepsi slmo7a year ago and folks I can tell you pepsi is a HORRIBLE company to work for. Their HR people have no integrity and allow Supervisors to text the sales team 24/7 when they already work 3 or 4 am to 5, 6 or 7 pm. Then they never back them if a store such as walmart harassed the sales or merchandising staff. All the way up to CEO'S office they could care less. My husband was treated so badly and worked so hard for them. So now I'm concerned about this job. Although I have to say they seem not to care at Schwan's about keeping their word even at this point. On 2 occasions they said the recruiter would call after he spent 12 hours of his own time on a ride along, and a week or two later they finally call after he followed up. That says alot and concerns me. I don't want him to work for another employer like pepsi..
I work for Schwans and I work 4 days a week. I built my routes from the routes they gave me. Im doing pretty good its a job you have to give yourself too or you will not suceed.
I am a wife of an employee driver. He's worked there for over 8 years. We have no life, as they require 70 hours+ . I have practically raised our daughter alone. Any work at home is done by me because when he gets home after midnight the majority of the time, with no energy most of the time not even energy to eat. They go up and down up and down with his pay changing the pay structure seems like weekly.
Worst of all no family life (this has affected his family unbelievably) so worse of all they pay next to nothing. We have lost our home at once our vehicle because we can never depend on his pay. They basically treat them like puppets, garbage, crap, whatever you want to call it.
As A Wife Of A driver I have suffered unbelievably. Even health problems aquired by stress and depression. Too much to even explain. All this while the executive staff in MN are probably sitting in there Mercedes Benz. I feel like we should be compensated for all the heart ache.
He is not just a ordinary worker he has put his ALL into his job
Just to again and again go through disapointment ..
Kim
Thanks for posting this, I got an email to interview for the Sales position. After reading all of complaints from former employees this does not appear to be a good company to work for. I will continue to work at my job that I am at, will not want to quit and fall a victim working for these people.
Yup, schwans is hard work...oh wait you don't know what that is? The only people who do poorly at schwans are lazy ###s.
I too used to work at Schwans, only as a refrigeration technician at their Florence, KY plant. That is where they make Freschetta, Red Baron, and Tony's pizzas as well as some for the Schwans name. I personally witnessed an ice machine (used to cool the dough as it is being processed so the yeast doesn't rise prematurely) that had eaten a hole in itself. My supervisor made a comment about "Good thing it's edible fiberglass". Unfortunately, no such thing exists! When I turned in my two-weeks notice, they promptly fired me. I called the HR manager the next day and found that I wasn't "fired". I was merely "let go" because they chose not to honor my notice. I had no idea there was a difference between the two! I will never work for this company again, nor will I eat any of their products. They obviously could care less about the customers they serve, but would instead rather "get the numbers out".
I am a Schwans driver. I can tell you first hand that this is the absolute worst company I have ever worked with and, along with 70% of all Schwans employees, I am seeking other employment. I would encourage any and every customer to boycott this company immediately.
Crooked Schwan's Fraud Company. Overpriced food, over worked drivers, don't waste your money supporting this scam.
hey people don't believe the schwans ### about their so great. they treat all route managers like ### we are company ###s so the brass gets their bonus off our sweat.
sounds like a ### lgm.
terrible experience
Beware Schwan's employees and future risk takers! Schwan's benefits are not what you think they are. After paying for coverage for over 5 years and being told by the company that they pay for half I have just found out that is not true. I have just purchased a 'family' policy for less than what they charged me for an 'employee' policy. And with much better benefits! If I had signed up for a 'family' plan with Schwan's then I would be paying less than half for a 'family' plan as an individual. Seems like Schwan's is making money off their beloved employees.
Also, and the biggest issue of all; Schwan's LTD (long term disability policy is really short term because it only helps you for a total of 12 months. And at that Standard Insurance Company who under writes the policy does everything they can to avoid paying you your benefits. They will lie, cheat and steal to keep from paying you one red cent. Schwan's doesn't tell their new employee this, ever. All they want you to believe is their benefits are the greatest. That's B.S!
God for bid, but if you are ever injured while working, look out. Even if the injury is the companies fault such as faulty equipment, etc. Specialty Risk Services is the Company you get to have ruin your life. And I mean this literally! They are just as crooked as the rest of them. Schwans is not interested in their employees. Schwan's has very few veterans left as compared to new employees. I know, I was a veteran employee.
Good luck to current Schwan's employees but beware. The company will screw you some how, some way and anyway they can. And for the left-over veterans who aren't qualified to work anywhere else I say good luck your turn is next.
The complaint has been investigated and resolved to the customer’s satisfaction.
For example, i ordered a bag of teriyaki "chicken wings"
I knew from the first bite that it didn't taste good at all.
It only has trace amounts of chicken and the rest of soy and wheat fillers and toxic additives like carmel additives.
I paid 14.00 for junk. I will never order from this company again.
Consumers beware. This is over-prices garbage
Same thing happened to me. I injured myself and was in the process of going on short term disability and was terminated. I was a manager and had worked for Schwan's for over 12 years. Schwan's is good at the old scare tactics and threatening its workers. We are in tough times and Schwan's is not a neccessity, most people are trying to save money and upper management does not want to hear this. They want you to push items onto your customers or you will be terminated. After working 65 hours plus a week, if the CSM's didn't hit their projected number for the week, we were told to threaten them into working on Saturday. Along with them working on Saturday, the local managers had to work on Saturday. It's time Schwan's realizes there needs to be a good balance between work and family. Its time that someone in Marshall wakes up and realizes what district managers are doing is not working. When you go to meetings and your are told to give your manager a list of people you plan on terminating, or as they call it, "a planned turn", that is just wrong. When I started with the company I would have fought for them and what they where about, but since Marvin passed away it, it has went down hill with the crap- managers they have running some of these districts. Wake-up Scott McNair!
So true! My husband is a 14 year old veteran and yep, Schwans will suck you dry and spit you out. My husband works in warehouse and they are treated EVEN WORSE!